I don't like or trust Andrew Doyle. That doesn't mean that I don't recognise that he is often correct, but, in things like the current spat, he seems (to me) to have an attitude that he and his friends shouldn't be criticised, that he and his friends should be the ones setting the agenda, and that anyone deviating from whatever they have set as a road map is the enemy. He has (again, in my opinion) a blind-spot for anyone who doesn't share his political leanings,which is, frankly, silly.
His idea that lists are always dangerous is nonsensical, and the "You know who had lists - Nazis!!" trope is just a thought-terminating cliché. I didn't get chance to view the list in question before it was taken down, so I can't comment on its content, but the idea in principle is not a bad one. Also, looking at it practically, we are all keeping lists of some sort - in our heads, on our computers, in notebooks - of men who, like Juno Dawson, are men pretending to be women (two sections covered in one! 😁 😁), and It is not hard to imagine that the Index will be circulating behind the scenes, with less oversight.
I completely agree with your "No Compromise" list, and I'll challenge anyone who doesn't.
Great comment as ever Jeremy and I agree about Andrew Doyle. He’s done great work on Free Speech Nation. I enjoy his articles and agree with much of what he says but he can be harsh and unforgiving at times.
I didn’t see the list either but apparently it listed sex offenders alongside other trans identified people which didn’t sound particularly helpful, although the Nazi analogy was daft. It’s exactly what he complains about others doing. The list of sex offenders on the Glinner update is I think, much more useful and appropriate.
This does go around in a circle doesn't it. Stella O'Malley had made a list that Andrew D quotes of supposedly bullied people and within that list were many of the people who wrote 'that letter' in August which made outrageous allegations of inciting racist violence without naming anyone at all or providing any evidence and which was probably directed at KJK and the Let Women Speak crew (ie many of us as well!!!). And, if it had named anyone, would have been good grounds for a defamation claim!! As I say above where does this get us? Insofar as there may be very nice larping men they still can't come into women's spaces and women's sports! Children should still not be medicalised and harmed.
I pondered long over going back to 'that letter' in the comments to Andrew's piece and decided to let sleeping dogs lie!
Another issue I see lurking underneath is that a lot of these people voted for Labour and think that it will be ok to just talk to Labour and everything will be fine and dandy. I think they resent those of us, including many ex Labour voters, who told them they needed their heads examined! To go back to 'that letter' it was addressed to the GC 'far right' ( good of them to adopt one of the insults used against us by the TRAs) so it implied that only those on the left were true GC people and, once again, I think a lot of them remain Labour voters.
I agree with TT that JL's list on the Glinner Update is sufficient for our purposes.
I am now worried about what happens with the Glinner Update now that Glinner is off to Phoenix!!
What a great retort from the Spectator. It really is time that people stopped pandering to ‘grievance gerbils’. How else would you describe a man who is claiming to be a woman?
The Doyle article about bullying has stirred up a hornets nest. Whilst I don’t believe in bullying of any kind, I do think that Andrew Doyle is being harsh by not taking into account the years of abuse, threats and attacks on rights that our side has been enduring. I’m surprised there’s been so little aggression from the GC movement. Nor does he mention the bullying of people like KJK from those on our side. I don’t think his article was helpful in that he has given the Tras something else to screech about and I wish I’d been a bit more forceful in my reply to him.
No trials please Wes Streeting and there’s no such thing as a trans child! 🤬
Thanks Dusty. Lots to ponder. Both end pieces are becoming clashing ear worms in my head. Help! 😄
I agree with what you say about Andrew D's article. Subsequently I also thought of the Lord Justice Sedley quote I often use about things being offensive or heretical but still within the bounds of free speech. I haven't even looked at the 'Troon Index' but, if it is offensive, either block the person or tell the person why it is offensive. At the end of the day the article led nowhere because, even if everything Andrew says is true, we still are left with the position that we cannot compromise and, as you also say, it simply gifts some ammo to the TRAs.
His puberty blockers piece was good but he seemed to not spot the bit about clinical trials or else not appreciate the importance of that. I think I will write to Wes Streeting BTW!!
The Elvis impersonation is ringing in my head!😂 It is currently no 1 on I Tunes 😄
Exactly, agree with all that. And how did Doyle miss the puberty blocker trials and Wes Streeting’s repeated use of ideological language. I didn’t think to watch the clip before posting a comment as I assumed everything was good. I was really shocked when I listened and my heart sank.
Good idea, think I’ll write to Streeting too. All he has to do is look at the evidence built up over decades of use for precocious puberty. And the lack of suicides and the lack of trans children pre 2010…….
Totally agree with Barry that this is a collaborative movement, not a collective one.
What a loss for the UK when Glinner moves to Arizona, but I'm glad that things are starting to work out for him again. I know he's not the only one to have lost work and income from speaking out, and I hope that the others to whom this has also happened get back on their feet, too.
For now, he says it will remain, but I suspect it’s on borrowed time. Sad, but inevitable, as he moves on with his life, and the climate around gender ideology changes. He’s done great work, and let’s hope the updates continue for a while, albeit in a different vein, as they chronicle the fall of gender ideology.
I don't like or trust Andrew Doyle. That doesn't mean that I don't recognise that he is often correct, but, in things like the current spat, he seems (to me) to have an attitude that he and his friends shouldn't be criticised, that he and his friends should be the ones setting the agenda, and that anyone deviating from whatever they have set as a road map is the enemy. He has (again, in my opinion) a blind-spot for anyone who doesn't share his political leanings,which is, frankly, silly.
His idea that lists are always dangerous is nonsensical, and the "You know who had lists - Nazis!!" trope is just a thought-terminating cliché. I didn't get chance to view the list in question before it was taken down, so I can't comment on its content, but the idea in principle is not a bad one. Also, looking at it practically, we are all keeping lists of some sort - in our heads, on our computers, in notebooks - of men who, like Juno Dawson, are men pretending to be women (two sections covered in one! 😁 😁), and It is not hard to imagine that the Index will be circulating behind the scenes, with less oversight.
I completely agree with your "No Compromise" list, and I'll challenge anyone who doesn't.
Great comment as ever Jeremy and I agree about Andrew Doyle. He’s done great work on Free Speech Nation. I enjoy his articles and agree with much of what he says but he can be harsh and unforgiving at times.
I didn’t see the list either but apparently it listed sex offenders alongside other trans identified people which didn’t sound particularly helpful, although the Nazi analogy was daft. It’s exactly what he complains about others doing. The list of sex offenders on the Glinner update is I think, much more useful and appropriate.
Yes, great comment, Jeremy, thanks.
This does go around in a circle doesn't it. Stella O'Malley had made a list that Andrew D quotes of supposedly bullied people and within that list were many of the people who wrote 'that letter' in August which made outrageous allegations of inciting racist violence without naming anyone at all or providing any evidence and which was probably directed at KJK and the Let Women Speak crew (ie many of us as well!!!). And, if it had named anyone, would have been good grounds for a defamation claim!! As I say above where does this get us? Insofar as there may be very nice larping men they still can't come into women's spaces and women's sports! Children should still not be medicalised and harmed.
I pondered long over going back to 'that letter' in the comments to Andrew's piece and decided to let sleeping dogs lie!
Another issue I see lurking underneath is that a lot of these people voted for Labour and think that it will be ok to just talk to Labour and everything will be fine and dandy. I think they resent those of us, including many ex Labour voters, who told them they needed their heads examined! To go back to 'that letter' it was addressed to the GC 'far right' ( good of them to adopt one of the insults used against us by the TRAs) so it implied that only those on the left were true GC people and, once again, I think a lot of them remain Labour voters.
I agree with TT that JL's list on the Glinner Update is sufficient for our purposes.
I am now worried about what happens with the Glinner Update now that Glinner is off to Phoenix!!
Thanks again, Jeremy and TT
Sorry about all this waffle!
Dusty
Not waffle, perfect sense. It must be sense if I agree with it! 😀
😄
What a great retort from the Spectator. It really is time that people stopped pandering to ‘grievance gerbils’. How else would you describe a man who is claiming to be a woman?
The Doyle article about bullying has stirred up a hornets nest. Whilst I don’t believe in bullying of any kind, I do think that Andrew Doyle is being harsh by not taking into account the years of abuse, threats and attacks on rights that our side has been enduring. I’m surprised there’s been so little aggression from the GC movement. Nor does he mention the bullying of people like KJK from those on our side. I don’t think his article was helpful in that he has given the Tras something else to screech about and I wish I’d been a bit more forceful in my reply to him.
No trials please Wes Streeting and there’s no such thing as a trans child! 🤬
Thanks Dusty. Lots to ponder. Both end pieces are becoming clashing ear worms in my head. Help! 😄
You're welcome, TT.
Well said Michael Gove!
I agree with what you say about Andrew D's article. Subsequently I also thought of the Lord Justice Sedley quote I often use about things being offensive or heretical but still within the bounds of free speech. I haven't even looked at the 'Troon Index' but, if it is offensive, either block the person or tell the person why it is offensive. At the end of the day the article led nowhere because, even if everything Andrew says is true, we still are left with the position that we cannot compromise and, as you also say, it simply gifts some ammo to the TRAs.
His puberty blockers piece was good but he seemed to not spot the bit about clinical trials or else not appreciate the importance of that. I think I will write to Wes Streeting BTW!!
The Elvis impersonation is ringing in my head!😂 It is currently no 1 on I Tunes 😄
Dusty
Exactly, agree with all that. And how did Doyle miss the puberty blocker trials and Wes Streeting’s repeated use of ideological language. I didn’t think to watch the clip before posting a comment as I assumed everything was good. I was really shocked when I listened and my heart sank.
Good idea, think I’ll write to Streeting too. All he has to do is look at the evidence built up over decades of use for precocious puberty. And the lack of suicides and the lack of trans children pre 2010…….
Great , the more the merrier 😊
Really pleased for Glinner but sad for us. Good luck Graham.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ykfUbIjtjEY
Here’s the interview he mentions.
Great, thanks, TT. I had better extend my daily walk a bit today😄
I have now listened to it. Great interview. Looks like Andrew Doyle is basing himself there as well!!!
Dusty
Totally agree with Barry that this is a collaborative movement, not a collective one.
What a loss for the UK when Glinner moves to Arizona, but I'm glad that things are starting to work out for him again. I know he's not the only one to have lost work and income from speaking out, and I hope that the others to whom this has also happened get back on their feet, too.
Hi Katrina
Glad you agree with Barry.
Yes obviously can't begrudge Glinner this move but I am worried about what happens to the wonderful Glinner update!
Dusty
For now, he says it will remain, but I suspect it’s on borrowed time. Sad, but inevitable, as he moves on with his life, and the climate around gender ideology changes. He’s done great work, and let’s hope the updates continue for a while, albeit in a different vein, as they chronicle the fall of gender ideology.
Hi Katrina
I have messaged Glinner and will report back.
I think that 'the fall' is going to take some time so we could do with JL being around!
Dusty